Frederica Freyberg:
Last week we brought you a debate about a proposed beer tax in Wisconsin. It featured the author of the beer tax bill, Terese Berceau, and co-owner of the New Glarus Brewery, Deb Carey. The topic covers a lot of territory and the segment was over almost as quickly as it began.

Frederica Freyberg:
We need so much more time for this.

Deb Carey:
Yes, we do.

Frederica Freyberg:
And we will have it. We will revisit this issue and have you both back. We'd like to do that. Deb Carey and Terese Berceau.

Frederica Freyberg:
They are back. Deb Carey and Terese Berceau returning for more on the beer tax. But before we begin, some context. These things are true. The beer tax in Wisconsin was last raised in 1969. It's currently cited as the third lowest in the nation. We know this. The state needs money. Wisconsin has a drinking problem. The Centers for Disease Control says the state has the highest number of binge drinkers in the nation and the largest percentage of drunk driving accidents. The issue of debate? What to do about it. Rep. Terese Berceau says, raise the beer tax. She's drafted legislation to do just that. Brewery owner Deb Carey says that's the wrong approach. Bear with us as we give you the goods on the proposed beer tax. It would increase from $2 a barrel to $10 a barrel. Two dollars would go toward law enforcement. Four dollars would go toward drug and alcohol treatment, another $2 toward grants for treatment and prevention. It would raise more than $48 million against the current $9.76 million. Currently the tax adds less than a penny to a bottle of beer. The increase would take it to about three cents per bottle. All of that said, thank you very much for joining us again on this topic. I wanted to go first to you, Rep. Berceau, and all of that said it has not been raised, the beer tax, in 40 years, and it also has all of these exemptions built in, whereas currently small producers like New Glarus, only have to pay half of that $2 tax, and yours would only then go up to $5. Is that accurate, that those — that exemption and the others stay in this bill?

Terese Berceau:
That exemption stays. As I said to Deb last time, we do consider our microbreweries a growth industry and something we're really proud of in Wisconsin and so that I did not touch the fact that they are taxed at half the rate on the first 50,000 barrels that they produce.

Frederica Freyberg:
It would go from $1 on that first 50,000 to $5, but that's still — that's steep. If I got a tax increase like that, what about phasing it in or something like that?  

Terese Berceau:
Well, I guess we could talk about phasing it in. I think the first hurdle that we need to overcome is whether or not we're going to get the backbone to raise the beer tax for the revenue that we need. I think arguing about the details at this point, I think we need to get more comfortable with the concept.  

Frederica Freyberg:
Because do you feel like you're the lone person in the woods on this?

Terese Berceau:
Not anymore. I really was when I first started this, and I have a lot more support in the Capitol now, and I think a lot of it has had to do with the public saying to the Legislature, ‘Do something, get serious about the drunk driving problem,’ which is only one aspect of the problem in Wisconsin. Then we did finally pass at least in the assembly a tighter, stronger drunk driving law and even that, which doesn't tremendously increase the penalties, is estimated to cost about an additional $70 million.

Frederica Freyberg:
Right.

Terese Berceau:
Which we don't have.

Frederica Freyberg:
And I want to get to that a little bit later, earmarking for those costs. But,
Deb Carey, the devils are in the details of this for people like you, presumably, because your tax would go up a lot. What do you currently pay in beer tax alone?

Deb Carey:
In Wisconsin beer tax alone I think we're at about $150,000 and this would raise it to $550,000. So that is a significant increase and a number of jobs for our area. But it's not — it's not just the beer tax. Really I have to say that the whole discussion to me is difficult because, you know, when we look at things like — there are a lot of statistics being bantered about. But when you look at statistics, you have to see where they're coming from. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety, we're down between 1982 and 2006, we're down 27 percent in highway fatalities due to drunk driving, and we also did change — it's not just drinking. It's also prescription drugs, like our Rep. Wood. There's an awful lot of — we could probably debate statistics all day, but there's a lot of conflicting information here that I think when you look at national statistics and things that are compiled by the Department of Revenue. For instance, your tax comment. Wisconsin brewers do pay some of the highest taxes in the nation.

Frederica Freyberg:
Overall.

Deb Carey:
People forget, you know, that we're getting our property tax raised just like everybody else.

Frederica Freyberg:
I know, but let me just say this. We're keeping this to the beer tax. And I understand the burden, because no one likes the burden of taxes. But why on the beer tax specifically can't you just pass that along? If it's 3 cents a bottle, is that a big deal?

Deb Carey:
Okay. I would say it's closer to 5 cents a bottle, but you're right. It's a small amount. It's a few pennies, if it would save lives, would certainly be worth it. There's a number of things. For one, the bill itself, how it's written, it's for people to apply for grants, to apply for the most — the majority of the money, as you said, would be for counseling and prevention, really not law enforcement, which I think is what most people are signing on for. They would like to see, you know, like our past representative, you know, stop driving around for crying in the soup. But in addition to that, the issue is, is this an effective way to spend our money? We've already been paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in beer tax over the last 10 years. And it really isn't going toward any of these programs that they're discussing.

Frederica Freyberg:
Let me ask you, Terese Berceau, about earmarking in this bill and applying for grants to get the money and also this issue of the costs of these new drunk driving penalties. You don't earmark specifically in this bill except in these kind of broader categories for treatment and prevention. Why not?

Terese Berceau:
Well, that, we do in the sense that people can apply for grants. But that is something that I am thinking of amending in the bill and applying more towards early intervention. And that is because right now in ten states, including Wisconsin, or it might be a dozen states, there's something called S-BIT. Screening, brief intervention and referral for treatment. And it is an early intervention program where we try and incorporate it -- and I'm on one of the committees for this program. We try and incorporate this screening for potential alcoholism and alcohol abuse at a very early stage. Like, for instance, when somebody signs up for a health plan or when somebody comes in for a physical.

Frederica Freyberg:
So you would earmark that in this kind of bill. One question: Why focus only on beer here? Why not a liquor and wine tax?        

Terese Berceau:
Well, there were two reasons. One is that our liquor and wine tax is closer to the national average. Our beer tax is, as you know, third lowest in the nation. The other issue, though, the one that I think speaks to the problem more, the Centers for Disease Control, as well as our own department of health has said that basically the heaviest drinkers, the people who are responsible for binge drinking, beer is their drink of choice. So — and the Centers for Disease Control, for instance, says that 85 percent of binge drinkers account for — or 20 percent of the population accounts for —

Frederica Freyberg:
We need to give the last word here on this to Deb Carey. So you can respond to the beer drinkers.

Deb Carey:
Well, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, drunk driving fatalities overall are down significantly, something like 65 percent, and teen drinking is also down significantly, as also the Department of Public Instruction in Wisconsin said that risk behavior for teens is down. So this whole — I mean, I have to disagree with it. But beer is a beverage of moderation. In the meantime, according to the federal — they compile all the taxes paid for all alcohol industries, wine and hard liquor has increased in the state of Wisconsin at the exact same time beer consumption has gone down significantly.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. This time we leave it here. Deb Carey and Terese Berceau, thanks very much.