Frederica Freyberg:
Still full from Thanksgiving dinner? How about a cheese course? That by way of a new book to sink your teeth into. “The Master Cheesemakers of Wisconsin” is just out. The authors, two Wisconsin natives with a new appreciation and taste for artisan cheeses from across the state, James Norton and Becca Dilley. I spoke with them earlier this week. Thank you very much for joining us.

James Norton:
Thank you for having us on.

Frederica Freyberg:
Why did you set out to write this book?

James Norton:
We heard about the Master Cheesemaker program at a time when we were living in Boston, and Bostonians are good at a lot of things but they don't necessarily know their cheese. As a couple of Wisconsinites, we put ourselves in the position of being cheese ambassadors. We heard about this program where you have to be a licensed cheesemaker for 10 years and then go through two-and-a-half or three years of essentially post-graduate study at the university plus a 30 to 40 to 50 page final exam on your way out plus an interview on your way in where your plant is inspected, and we thought, ‘who are the people that love cheese so much that they would put themselves through this excruciating process after they're already established in their art and their business?’ It just intrigued us, and we thought, ‘let's meet them. Let's interview them, let's photograph them and tell their stories.’

Frederica Freyberg:
What will we see between the pages of this book?

Becca Dilley:
Something that profiles master cheesemakers we met with, mostly all of the master cheesemakers, 43 of them, we went to the plants, interviewed them. They were gracious and took us around their cheese plant so I did the photography. There's a lot of photos of them with their hands in the curd, being active, doing the cheesemaking, much more documentary that you might find in other places and then Jim did profiles of them. So it's really a snapshot in time of what these cheesemakers are doing, a little of their history, the cheeses they're making and kind of where they're going.

James Norton:
As much as we could, we just got them talking and we listened. I'm kind of a fan of Studs Terkel and “The Good War” and he just did this amazing text dump almost of letting people's stories spill out. As much as we could, we turned the tape recorder on and got them talking, and I did a full transcript of 36 or 37 hours of audio and tried to pull out the themes that were underlying each of these stories. Hopefully every biography brings its own point or its own highlights as you read them.

Frederica Freyberg:
How many — we have some photographs that you took as part of this book. How many varieties of cheese are there in Wisconsin?

James Norton:
More than 600 which is way more than any other state. California is second with 200 and something. Wisconsin is an incredible cheese state. Not only does Wisconsin make the most cheese but in terms of winning medals, both nationally and internationally, it's an incredible power house, usually winning more than most countries, for example. The picture we see here, that's the contents of our refrigerator at one point during this process. I think there's only 30 or so, 25 or 30 cheeses there, but it gives you a little bit of a feel for the variety that comes out of this.

Becca Dilley:
This is from about 10 different master cheesemakers as well.

Frederica Freyberg:
Did you guys sample every cheese of each master cheesemaker that you visited?

James Norton:
Goodness no.

Becca Dilley:
We sampled some cheese from every cheesemaker. Not every variety they make but usually one or two cheeses.

James Norton:
Some of these plants, too, would have 30, 40, 50 different kinds of cheese. Some are seasonal, some rotating in and out. We did our best to hit the highlights and whatever they're excited about.

Becca Dilley:
This is an amazing, cinnamon rubbed butter kase from Bass Lake Creamery right outside of Hudson, Wisconsin. And Scott Erickson there is making a lot of flavored cheeses that are more subtle than you might expect. This one is a really sweet, light cheese and has a cinnamon rub on the outside so it's almost like a dessert. It's very different from what you might expect from Wisconsin cheese.

Frederica Freyberg:
And we have some photos as well of some of the cheesemakers themselves. Who is this?

James Norton:
This is Johnny from near the Green Bay area. He’s actually a native of Pomona, Italy. He came over here from Italy to make the Italian soft cheeses in Wisconsin. The climate and the soil of northern Wisconsin is not unlike that of northern Italy. You see great aged parmesans being made there, and that's Johnny in his aging room with all of these wheels. He's incredibly and rightfully very proud of this stuff.

Frederica Freyberg:
What did you learn that surprised you most when you toured the state, interviewing these cheesemakers?

Becca Dilley:
The amount of knowledge that each cheesemaker brings to what they're doing. They're really — they're always tinkering, they're always learning, they're always trying new things and then playing on the stuff that they already know and just the depth of knowledge that they're bringing to each day of cheesemaking is really stunning.

Frederica Freyberg:
Who is this?

James Norton:
That's Richard Glik and he's a master whose specialty was blue cheese. They made it in Andora, Wis., and it's not a typical blue. Some blue cheeses have an almost ammonia or very challenging sharp flavor and like a lot of Wisconsin blues, the sort of stuff that he makes is a little more mellow and creamy and delicious.

Frederica Freyberg:
Does the economy have any effect on these cheesemakers?

James Norton:
It has a tremendous effect. One of the things that we picked up on during this trip on the negative side of the ledger, milk prices are volatile and have been through recent years and that's an incredibly challenging position to be in when your main component could be up or down 10 percent in a couple of weeks. On the positive side there's a real explosion of interest in artisan cheese particularly that's got better profit margins, in some ways easier to market because there's a novelty to it and a cache to it and from the smallest makers to the big plants, Wisconsin is sharp about reorienting toward some of the special cheeses, and it's been great for the industry.

Frederica Freyberg:
Just one very quick last question. What is your favorite of all of the cheeses that you sampled?

James Norton:
I'll let you field this first.

Becca Dilley:
I still love aged cheddar. I just — my appreciation for that has grown, and any of those aged, real classic Wisconsin cheeses I love.

James Norton:
For me it varies occasion to occasion. One cheese that totally surprised me that was really special to me is a string cheese made by a guy named David at Union Star Dairy near Green Bay, and it's so fresh and light. It's just like milk made solid like right off the farm. It was — here's string cheese but this stuff was magical.

Frederica Freyberg:
You guys are the best ambassadors. Thank you very much. Your book is “The Master Cheesemakers of Wisconsin.” Thanks very much.

James Norton:
Thanks for having us.

Frederica Freyberg:
I spoke with the authors earlier in the week.