Art Hackett:
We shift gears now and move from the economy to the environment. Remember Asian carp? We worried a lot about the invasive species this past winter as biologists tracked their movement up the Chicago Sanitary Canal towards an electric barrier. A few were found, but nowhere near the number feared. On Monday, Illinois officials announced the results of a six-week search for Asian carp beyond that electric barrier. None were found. Phil Moy is with the UW Sea Grant Institute. He was on the canal this winter during that initial investigation, and he joins us now from Sheboygan. Good evening, Mr. Moy.

Phil Moy:
Good evening.

Art Hackett:
So, no fish. Surprised by that?

Phil Moy:
No, not really. These fish are pretty tough to catch, and they're not in any abundance above the barrier, so I'm not too surprised.

Art Hackett:
Are you relieved they didn't find any?

Phil Moy:
Yeah. In a way I am. It confirms that the numbers are very, very low. It also underscores the sensitivity of the EDNA testing and how rare the fish can be and the EDNA can pick these things up.

Art Hackett:
Some people may look at this and say, ‘We were worried about nothing.’ Is this still a concern?

Phil Moy:
Oh, I think it's still a concern. I mean, certainly there are quite a number of fish downstream of the electric barrier. I think undoubtedly a handful at least upstream of the electric barrier. I don't think it's anything to say we don't need to worry about it at all. Keeping their numbers low, of course, keeps their chance of establishing in the Great Lakes quite low. So I think that's on our side.

Art Hackett:
Now, in terms of a long-term strategy they've talked about, do we want to try and close the locks? Do we want to put in more barriers? Do we know what our long-term strategy is at this point?

Phil Moy:
I think the Corps of Engineers and the other federal participants are working on that. In my mind, the long-term strategy will involve some sort of physical separation of the lake and the canal or the lake and the Des Plaines River. The equivalent of closing the locks, but it's going to be something that can better address navigation interests or cargo transfer, recreational boating interests, as well as the storm water and wastewater issues.

Art Hackett:
So the fact that they are not present already in huge numbers buys us some time, gives us a chance to be a little more thoughtful about the solutions?

Phil Moy:
Exactly. And the point that they are not in large numbers, that's very important for us. It buys us some time, but we can't just dilly-dally and say we have years and years and years. The other thing is we've got to keep that electric barrier running. The barriers down there have been shut off for one reason or another, for maintenance over time. Probably the fish were present back in 2008 when it was turned off for about a month, and they just swam upstream at that point. In my mind, that's where these few fish came from. We've got to keep an electric current in the water, separate those watersheds we've talked about in the past. Keep those numbers low. And that buys us some time to really get on this physical, this ecological separation between the lakes and the Des Plaines River.

Art Hackett:
The electric barriers, there's two different ones. Do you get a feeling that the new barrier is actually more effective than the old one?

Phil Moy:
The new barrier is certainly more effective on small fish than the old one. The old one, yeah, it was a demonstration, runs at one volt per inch and about five pulses per second. It's very effective on large fish, I'm certain. But small fish we know, say four, five inches could swim through that weaker electric field, especially near the surface. The new barrier can operate at two volts per inch and longer pulse duration. Small fish are not going to get through that. We've already tested it with small fish on site and they are stunned immediately once they pass into the field.

Art Hackett:
Quick answer on this last one. What's the next thing to watch for in this story?

Phil Moy:
I think we're going to have to see perhaps some depletion of the population downstream.
We've focused on these upstream areas near the lake to try and capture the few fish up there.
Maybe let's pull back, go downstream, try to reduce the numbers downstream. At the same time certainly Corps of Engineers has to separate the river from the shipping canal. A lot of things going on right now.

Art Hackett:
Phil Moy, thanks for joining us.

Phil Moy:
Thank you.