Frederica Freyberg:
Doyle's budget called for sweeping new accountability measures for the more than 120 private schools in the Milwaukee choice program, everything from requiring bachelor's degrees for teachers to standardized tests, academic standards and audits. Some measures have been modified by the legislature and what sticks will await final budget passage. A man instrumental in the process and a national leader of the school choice movement joins us, former Milwaukee public school superintendent and current director at the Marquette University Center for the Transformation of Learning, Howard Fuller. Thanks so much for being here.

Howard Fuller:
My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:
After 20 years of Milwaukee choice schools, do you believe that it is time for more accountability now?  

Howard Fuller:
Well, I think that the provisions that the governor proposed and the modifications that have been made in the legislature and we favor the Senate version of those modifications, which really incorporates a lot of the work that has been done over the last 12 weeks or so, particularly working with Sen. Taylor, Rep. Grigsby, other members of the black caucus. I think that the modifications that we have come up with and most of those are contained in the Senate version, represents a good compromise between what the governor initially came up with and what many of us here in Milwaukee feel will work for the program.

Frederica Freyberg:
So which are the specific requirements or the accountability measures in the Senate version that you think will work?  

Howard Fuller:
Well, we think that the way that we've defined the open records effort is very important because it does not turn private school boards into public entities, but at the same time we think it gives the kind of transparency that we think people are interested in. I think the language on accreditation, where we actually create a free accreditation process, whereas schools will have to go through both a screen by the DPI on finances and then ITO will do what I call an “academic capacity screening.” We think this will allow us to make sure people have the capacity to form schools before they actually begin. And then I think the wording on the WKCE is very important because what it does is unless there's a revised WKCE by January 1 of 2010, the private schools would not be required to take that test. And I know that the state is very interested in revising its WKCE to have a more nationally norm test, working in concert with 44 or 46 other states. So we think that the way that the language is currently constructed, coming out of the Senate, as well as the language that came out of the Assembly on that issue, is okay.

Frederica Freyberg:
And so standardized tests, the WKCE is a standardized test that is given to public school children in various grade levels. And a standardized test for these private choice schools is okay with you.

Howard Fuller:
Well, current law requires private schools that participate in the choice program to give nationally norm tests. Now we're moving towards a single test for all students who are publicly funded, via the Milwaukee parental choice program and traditional public schools. But what we want to make sure is that it's a test that we can all be proud of and that is a nationally norm test, as opposed to our current WKCE. I think that the work that we've done and the work that needs to go forward will make that happen.

Frederica Freyberg:
Do you believe, though, that accountability measures are necessary in Milwaukee's choice schools?

Howard Fuller:
I believe that we already had existing measures, particularly on the fiscal side, that were working. I felt like many of the provisions that the governor had in his bill were reasonable, but there were a number of them that needed to be modified so it wouldn't have the unintended consequence of hurting good schools. And I think that the work that has been done in the legislature gives us the types of modifications that will meet that objective.

Frederica Freyberg:
I know that you have, as you suggested, been working closely with the legislature on these modifications. How receptive is the governor to these changes?  

Howard Fuller:
I think that the governor indicated very early on that he had concerns, but he was willing to engage in discussion, and he has in fact followed through on that. And so that we've not only been talking with legislators, but we've also been talking to the governor's office. And so there's clearly been a receptivity to some of the concerns that we've raised and a willingness to work with us.    

Frederica Freyberg:
How well, in your mind, are Milwaukee choice schools serving their students?

Howard Fuller:
I think that many of the schools are serving kids very well. Some schools are not. And that's also true for our traditional public schools. And so our objective has to be in Milwaukee is to have more great schools no matter what kind of schools they are, whether they're public or private, and that it's in all of our interest to focus in on quality, accountability and transparency. And I think the work around the Milwaukee Parental Choice Program in this legislative session has moved us down that path. But we have a lot of work to do, not just for private schools participating in the choice program, but for MPS schools, for charter schools, for partnership schools, for all of us who are part of the Milwaukee education ecosystem.

Frederica Freyberg:
Because I know that originally these parental choice schools were kind of supposed to raise the bar and create competition with the public schools so that everyone got better. In your sense, has that happened?  

Howard Fuller:
I think that it is happening in a number of schools. I mean, even the longitudinal study, for example, people point to the fact that it talked about the private schools are only doing about as well as the Milwaukee public schools. But there are those of us who would say we're doing that at half the money and that that's a very important indicator. But I don't think it's good enough. I think our problem here is that we have some great schools that are in the Milwaukee public schools. We have some great schools that are in the Milwaukee parental choice program. What we've got to make sure that happens is we get rid of those schools that do not work, whether they're in the choice program or whether or not they're in MPS because what our children deserve is a great education by all schools.

Frederica Freyberg:
Howard Fuller, thank you very much for your time and your work.

Howard Fuller:
Thank you.